Frith above, it’s a Wheel of Time Reread!
Today’s entry covers Chapter 30 of A Memory of Light, in which LAVA. LAAAAAVVVVAAAAA.
Previous reread entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general. The index for all things specifically related to the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, is here.
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This reread post, and all posts henceforth, contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series. If you haven’t read, continue at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 30: The Way of the Predator
What Happens
Perrin and Gaul explore the reflection of Egwene’s camp; Graendal had been here, but not any longer. Slayer has been methodically testing their defenses at the Bore for weaknesses, as predators do. They discuss whom they should warn about Graendal, and Perrin is frustrated that he has to wait for someone to open a gateway at Merrilor to leave the wolf dream. He tries to figure out what Slayer does to achieve the trick, but cannot.
The longer he remained in the wolf dream in the flesh, the more he felt that he should know how to shift back. His body seemed to understand that this place was not natural for it.
[…] There was also an ache of fatigue inside him, growing stronger. He didn’t know if he could sleep in this place. His body wanted rest, but had forgotten how to find it. It reminded him a little of when Moiraine had dispelled their fatigue while fleeing the Two Rivers all that time ago. Two years now.
A very long two years.
They check Lan’s camp, but find no sign of Graendal there either. Gaul observes that if Lan’s army continues retreating as they are, they will soon end up back at Merrilor. Then a wolf calls to Perrin, saying they have found Heartseeker at Shayol Ghul. Perrin shifts himself and Gaul there immediately; the wolf seems familiar to Perrin but he cannot place him. The wolf indicates that Graendal is in Ituralde’s command tent. They shift closer in time to see her step out of the tent and Travel to the waking world, where she waves to the guards in front of the “real” tent and steps inside. Perrin almost follows her, but knows Rand is defenseless from Slayer without him, and doesn’t. He says they have to warn someone.
I suppose I could take the message for you, Young Bull, sent the unnamed wolf.
Perrin froze, then spun, pointing. “Elyas!”
I am Long Tooth here, Young Bull. Elyas sent amusement.
“I thought you said you didn’t come here.”
I said I avoided it. This place is strange and dangerous. I have enough strangeness and danger in my life in the other world. The wolf sat down on his haunches. But someone needed to check on you, foolish pup.
Elyas says that they have stood for five days at Shayol Ghul, but they won’t last for much longer. Perrin thinks that much more time has passed elsewhere, and that possibly only minutes have passed for Rand at the Bore itself. Perrin thinks on Graendal’s movements, and realizes that she must be corrupting the four captains at each battlefield. He asks if Elyas knows the trick of shifting back and forth from the dream in the flesh, and Elyas growls that it is too dangerous, and he would not teach it to Perrin if he knew. They are interrupted as Slayer attacks the wolves guarding the Bore.
Wolves whimpered and died. Others howled, beginning the hunt. This time, Slayer did not back away.
The way of the predator. Two or three quick lunges to determine weakness, then an all-out attack.
Perrin shouts at Elyas to wake up and warn anyone he can, and try to stop Ituralde and the other captains. Elyas fades out of the dream, and Perrin shifts to the cavern, ready to defend Rand.
Rand duels with Moridin, using Callandor as an actual sword, filled to bursting with the Power. He continues to bleed out slowly. Moiraine and Nynaeve seem to be battling some unseen force, clinging to rocks. Rand knows he is a better swordsman than Moridin, but he is one-handed and wounded now.
This place… this place changed things. Rocks on the ground seemed to move, and he often stumbled. The air grew alternately musty and dry, then humid and moldy. Time slipped around them like a stream. Rand felt as if he could see it. Each blow here took moments, yet hours passed outside.
Rand gets in a blow on Moridin’s arm, and asks if the Dark One punished him for thinking he was the Dark One. Moridin snarls back that he did, by bringing him back to life. He attacks, and Rand stumbles and goes to one knee.
Blade against blade. Rand’s leg slipped backward, and brushed the darkness behind, which waited like a pool of ink.
All went black.
Elayne is in a circle with twelve Kinswomen, but they are all so tired they collectively only have the strength of one Aes Sedai. Her army is exhausted and nearly surrounded by the southern Trolloc army.
“We almost managed,” Arganda said from beside her, shaking his head. “We almost made it.”
He wore a plume in his helmet. It had belonged to Gallenne. Elayne hadn’t been there when the Mayener commander had fallen.
Elayne knows that the Ogier have almost been overrun, their song breaking off one by one as they fall; the dragons are almost out of ammunition. The army fights on, but Bashere’s betrayal has shaken them. Elayne gathers her strength for one last attempt to defend against the Trollocs breaking through their lines, and is shocked when her volley hits with devastating force. Asha’man appear, reinforcing their lines, and a man Elayne is shocked to recognize as Logain rides up to her. She asks if Rand sent him, and Logain replies that they sent themselves.
“The Shadow has been planning this trap for a long time, according to notes in Taim’s study. I only just managed to decipher them.” He looked at her. “We came to you first. The Black Tower stands with the Lion of Andor.”
Elayne wants to order a retreat, but Logain counters that it will be a slaughter. Elayne snaps back that they have no other choice, unless he can produce a miracle for them. Logain smiles, and calls over a middle-aged Asha’man named Androl, accompanied by an Aes Sedai Elayne is startled to recognize as the Red sister Pevara. Logain asks Androl how much it will cost them for a miracle.
“Well, my Lord,” Androl said, rubbing his chin. “That depends. How many of those women sitting back there can channel?”
Elayne thinks back to the legends she had heard of the amazing feats accomplished by male and female channelers working together, but still has trouble comprehending it when she joins the circle of fourteen women and thirteen men, including Logain. She is puzzled when Androl leads the circle, even though he is extremely weak in the Power; he is astonished at the strength of the others in the circle, but asks that the soldiers move back. Elayne is worried, but gives the order, while the Asha’man not in the circle hold back the advancing Trollocs.
Androl smiled widely, and held his hands out in front of himself as if pressing against a wall. He closed his eyes. “Three thousand years ago the Lord Dragon created Dragonmount to hide his shame. His rage still burns hot. Today… I bring it to you, Your Majesty.”
Elayne watches in astonishment as Androl creates a massive gateway before them. The Trollocs break in horror before whatever is on the other side.
Something exploded out of the gateway, as if pushed by an incredible force. A column of lava a hundred feet in diameter, blazing hot. The column broke apart as the lava crashed down, splashing to the battlefield, gushing forward in a river. The Asha’man outside the circle used weaves of Air to keep it from splashing back on the circle and to shepherd it in the right direction.
The river of fire washed through the foremost Trolloc ranks, consuming them, destroying hundreds in an eyeblink.
Androl creates two other lava gateways to the southeast and southwest, carving huge swathes into the Trolloc ranks, before collapsing in exhaustion. He asks if that was miracle enough, and Elayne replies that it was, enough to give them a chance to regroup. Androl is surprised that she intends to continue fighting.
“Yes,” Elayne said. “I can barely stand, but yes. We cannot afford to leave that Trolloc horde here intact. You and your men give us an edge, Logain. We will use it, and everything we have, and we will destroy them.”
Commentary
I ain’t gonna lie, I grinned so hard at this last scene even as I loved it, because all I could think was how the fans had been griping for forever (not without cause, mind you) about how the potential uses of gateways had never been fully explored in the series, and how as of this chapter they officially had nothing to complain about anymore, because lava.
LAVA. I’m just saying, everybody can go home now, because LAVA.
It certainly doesn’t hurt that a hundred-foot-wide gateway spewing lava is possibly one of the most awesome mental visuals provided in the entire series.
A little absurd? Yeah, probably. Do I care? No. Because, hundred-foot-wide gateway spewing lava, thank you, goodbye. Almost certainly one of the bigger Crowning Moments of Awesome in a book that is (eventually) chock-full of ‘em, and one that I would totally kill to see on film someday, even as I can’t quite help but wonder where Elayne even learned the term “lava.”
But, yay, Androl. I could kind of wish, sometimes, that he hadn’t sucked up quite as much screentime from already established characters in AMOL (for example, I would have loved a POV from either Nynaeve or Moiraine during their time in the Bore), but I definitely can’t deny that in spite of that I really do genuinely like Androl, as both a character and as a plot device.
Plus I do tend to agree that it’s only fair that Sanderson got at least one WOT character to claim as pretty much exclusively his own. I might forget I said that whenever I get particularly irate over whatever reunion/moment/tying of loose ends I wanted and didn’t get in AMOL, but for now it holds true.
Elyas’ appearance, I have to say, came as a total surprise to me. I knew something was fishy the moment Perrin couldn’t identify the wolf who led him to Graendal, but for whatever reason I never even once suspected the wolf was Elyas until the text flat-out revealed it. Sigh. I so rarely guess the twists ahead of time!
Speaking of wolves and popping in and out of dreams:
Elyas fades out of the dream, and Perrin shifts to the cavern, ready to defend Rand.
I’m quoting my own summary there, because on re-reading it kind of made me laugh at the amount of shared jargon it requires for that sentence to make even the slightest amount of sense. And yet it does make sense—as long as you’ve been here for the building up of all the relevant context. Which is pretty much the point.
It reminded me of a discussion I had once, about some of the problems that are more or less unique to the genre of SFF. And one of those is the danger of literalism. In more “literary” genres (whatever that means), you could perhaps get away with using a phrase like “her lungs burst with air” in a metaphorical sense, but any savvy SFF reader, on reading such a thing, is going to immediately be like “wait, her lungs burst? The hell?” because we are reading in a context in which something like that might actually happen, for various in-world-plausible reasons. And so the SFF reader’s first instinct is going to be to take that phrase (and others like it) at face value, rather than as a poetic representation of someone gasping for breath, because that’s not how we’ve been trained as readers.
In the same way, the SFF reader is also comfortable with the idea that a story will introduce them to a learned vocabulary of terms and phrases that have different meanings in the context of the particular story they are reading than they would in a “normal” setting. E.g., when I say in my summary that Perrin “shifts” somewhere in the wolf dream, and you all immediately know I mean something totally different than the idea that he just moves over a little—which is what that term would mean in almost any other context.
This is something long-term SFF readers hardly even think about, because of how acclimated they are to the practice, but it’s something that people who are unused to the genre can find incredibly baffling and/or frustrating. I do not understand these people, but I know they exist.
(I still remember how completely tickled I was when I realized that Richard Adams had spent 95% of Watership Down teaching his readers Lapine—the rabbits’ language—for basically the sole purpose of having a character at the end utter a filthy insult untranslated, and it was both a devilishly clever end-run around decency laws and a Crowning Moment of Awesome for the character involved. Best use of SFF constructed jargon ever, as far as I am concerned.)
Anyway, my point is… um. That mutually acquired SFF jargon is cool, and haters on that can shoo fly, don’t bother me. Yes, that.
Speaking of which, it looks like Rand has taken a header straight into the Heart of Darkness, more or less literally, and so things are about to get miiiighty interesting for Our Hero. Good scene, though I kind of wanted to ask Moridin why he didn’t just off himself if he was so pissed to still be alive. Granted, according to Moridin the Dark One would just raise him again, but at least he would have had a few days’ peace, right?
Minor but vaguely interesting note: this is the first time (that I recall) that there has been a scene break within a chapter that didn’t also include a POV switch. In other words, we have a scene from Elayne’s POV, and then a scene break, but we go back to Elayne’s POV instead of switching to someone else. It’s not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but it is rather inconsistent with the pattern established thus far. Just saying.
Also: when I read Perrin’s estimation that two years had passed, in Randland, since the beginning of TEOTW to now, I couldn’t decide whether to be awed in the same way that Perrin was, or just amused that that’s how little time has gone by.
Also also: aw, Gallenne’s dead. That sucks. Not nearly as much as some of the deaths we’ll be getting later on, of course, but we’re just ramping up here, you know. Much more death to come! Whee!
And on that misleadingly cheery note, we out! Have a week, and I’ll see you the next time around!
Androl is such a great character. Love the anger of the Dragon moment. I never saw that coming at all. what a mind for bringing up newweaves
Speaking of literalism, in one of the Dresden Files books, Harry has to stop and think whether or not “boob fairy” is a literal or not. Which says something about his life at that point.
As a Dwarf Fortress player, I must admit I read the entire LAVAAaA section with a gigantic grin and feeling of unholy glee.
After years of playing a game where 90% of all problems can either be caused by or solved by the phrase “pour magma on it,” to see it happen in a novel I was reading just hit close to home.
Also, this struck me as one of the most quintessentially Brandon scenes of all three books. It has several hallmarks of his style; extremely vivid visual imagery, existing tools (Gateways) used in startling, unprecedented ways (FREAKIN’ LAVA CANNONS, GUYS), so on and so forth. The fact that it heavily featured his “personal” character certainly played into that, too. We never really saw a truly “showoffy” character with any real power in the previous WoT books, so while it was a bit jarring to see a channeler display a flair for the dramatic, it was also refreshing in some ways.
Plus, you know what, dude deserves to show off a bit after dousing an entire army with high-pressure blasts of molten freaking stone.
RE: the terminology/Lava: I have mixed feelings here, too. RJ probably would have described it as what it was; BS used a recognizable modern term for it. One is immersive and descriptive and beautiful, the other is functional. I… can’t say that I have severe ideological problems with either one, because even though RJ’s prose was brilliant, it was also obtuse at times. So now, I find myself missing RJ’s prose, and yet simultaneously recognizing that in some ways Sanderson’s writing is easier to read.
And what a long two years it has been, indeed, Perrin.
As much as I like the imagery of the spray of lava taking out trollocs, it also kind of bothers me. Beyond the issue with use of the term “lava”, which isn’t really that bad – presumably there are volcanoes somewhere, and some term exists to describe the liquid rock that erupts out of them – it is more the knowledge of geology that leads to this use that seems out of place. How did Androl know there would be a large reservoir of liquid rock beneath Dragonmount? How did he locate it exactly enough to open the gateway in the middle of the magma chamber? How did he know the lava would be under tremendous pressure and come spraying out? None of this really seems to be mentioned beforehand, there really doesn’t seem to be any in-world basis for him to have this knowledge or make these assumptions, and as cool as it is it really seems like a contrived scene that is incongruous with the rest of the series.
Also a thought I just had but have no real backup for; is there another instance of a channeler opening a gateway where neither end is facing towards them (or where neither end is really at the place they are located)?
So much has happened in two years, indeed. Wow. These kids have come a loooooong way!
Loved seeing Elyas! I was surprised too…nice little vignette for him….a favorite minor character of mine. I was frustrated, however, that he still thinkis of Perrin as a cub, and doesn’t help him learn to shift in and out of the dream…..especially since this is perhaps The End, and why not??
But I am glad that Perrin will get the Graendal warning out via Elyas, anyway. Then Elayne, Lan, etc. can stop wondering about their captains’ loyalty.
The term Lava didn’t bother me at all…after all, it has to have some name, why not ours? It certainly expedites our understanding of what’s happening. I do have some qualms about Androl as a newish character stealing a lot of screen time, as well. I like him, and he and Pevara, and I don’t begrudge Brandon is own character. Androl also solves a lot of plot concerns. But like Leigh, I might have preferred some more screen time for other long time characters to have a small MOA. *shrug* I’m not really too shuffed.
I did like Androls line about bringing the anger of the Dragon to the battle field. Very poetic.
@leighdb:
Small nitpick: You transcribed that incorrectly; that’s an illegal circle composition (with three small exceptions, there must always be more women than men in a circle). It was actually 14 women and 13 men.
My question regarding Moridin, if he just wants it all to end, why doen’t he just balefire himself? There’s no coming back from that.
All I am saying is that no time passes between books 5 thru 13. It’s a good think rand didn’t have to graduate dragon school or something. And the only reason books one thru four is a year is due to the stone shift thing rand put everyone thru to get to tomod head fast enough.
I wish I could get as much done as rand does in just one year.
Off to go invent a transporter!
Count me among those who were awed in the same way Perrin was. The main characters have come a long way from when we first met them (be it in TEotW for Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Min, Nyneave, Lan, Thom and Moiraine or TDR for Aviendha).
Skockie @8: do we now if it is possible to balefire yourself? I do not know of wiping themselves out of existence in that manner.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
I was so happy to finally see some creative gateway uses in this book. Gotta give Sanderson some mad props for that. Because lava… love it.
Lava rocks! Sorry couldn’t be helped. Puns are your friends people. Its strange that its only bee 2 years for Perrin cuz it feels like a decade and more for me. (Man I must be really far from the Bore).
NotInventedHere@5: The one that comes to mind is in ACoS Ch40 when Sammael scatters the Shaido with the travelling boxes ruse.
skockie@8: Argh, not this one again! :) http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=180 contains the following (Q6):
QUESTION: If I were to open a gateway in front of me that opened behind me, and I balefired myself, what would happen?
ROBERT JORDAN: Young lady, you are entirely too obsessed and have far too much time. You need to get some sort of life. I suggest you go have an intense love affair. Doesn’t matter with who, be it man, woman, or German Shepherd.
@5 NotInventedHere: Possible solutions: Androl has travelled a lot and learnt crazy stuff (jumped off a sea folk cliff? apprenticed to a wise woman? Whoa…) so if anyone in Randland might know about such stuff, he’d be that someone. (OK, maybe
NoalJain before he died…but no one else).Also, he can make a 30-foot wide gateway by himself, a tiny one precise enough to cut leather, a gateway (albeit minuscule) even through the dreamspike….basically he can do stuff with gateways no one else thought of. So not surprising if he can make it face a different way. (Plus, one of the AS, I forget who, figured out how to make a gateway horizontal – Bryne and co were using it to spy on the enemy and then when the Sharans appeared they jumped through it….)
@leigh, granted that Moridin could off himself…but then the DO would probably bring him back and ensure that he doesn’t have the wherewithal to kill himself again. At least now he has the potential to be free of life forever (assuming he believes the Father of Lies, don’t know why he would but he isn’t the sharpest cookie in the jar anyway?). I can kind of see him in a “I have no saidin and I must scream” scenario…
Also, this chapter answered one of my biggest questions – what did Pevara see in Androl, anyway? Till now I hadn’t thought he was the type to ignite flames of passion, but now I see he’s quite the lava-boy… (runs for the bunker)
~lakesidey
@8 skockie: Think of it…..Moridin balefires himself. Hence he ceases to exist a little before he balefires himself. So he pops back into existence, not knowing what just happened, but with the grim intent to balefire himself still in his mind. So he balefires himself. Rinse and repeat.
@9 LuvURphleb My, these Dragons get through Dragon school real fast, don’t they? Of course, Rand took even less time than Andrew Wiggin….but then he’s already bean there(in), done that….
(ducks back into the bunker)
~lakesidey
I take no credit for this; someone mentioned it on an earlier post. The most unique use of gateways was when Androl opened the tiny gateway to diffuse Taim’s balefire weave, and it ended up taking out Jimmy Hoffa.
One of the most awesome CMOA’s in the book and in the series!
I for one have no problem in believing that Androl would know that there would be molten rock at the heart of Dragon Mount; it is, after all, an active volcano and there are many prescientific societies in RL who knew that molten rock was found in the heart of volcanoes.
Androl is extemely well traveled and apparently spent time with the Seafolk (can you imagine him singing the Randland equivalent of “I’ve Been Everywhere”?) and so could possibly have actually seen some sort of eruption or lava flow.
Yeah, I actually put the book down and laughed out loud as hard as I ever have. Tears came to my eyes. A very long two years indeed. You want to talk about Sanderson breaking the fourth wall? Have at it, right here. Its like Perrin literally stopped narrating in his mind and looked at us and said in a totally dry voice “A very long two years.” and then winked.
I’m sure no one else thought that was as funny as I did. Oh well.
Now I want Macster or CireNaes or Freelancer to wax eloquent on the meta literary thingamajobber™ going on here. How we can compare the time dialation effect the characters are experiencing right now to the similar effect we feel as readers: To those who have just started reading the series, or picked up when Brandon took over, or 2006 or something, this line doesn’t carry quite the same sense of irony as it does to those of us who first read that line in 1991.
RE: Lava,
The etymology of the word lava stems from the 1750s and Mt Vesuvious in Italy. I really don’t think that counts as an anachronism on Sanderson’s part.
Now, if Elayne had called it magma… THAT would have been anachronistic. While that word dates back to the 16th centruy, it wasn’t used to describe molten rock until the mid 19th century.
Great scenes, great comments. I love Androl’s character arc and wasn’t surprised to find out that Androl’s character was BWS’ construct. Androl made the book feel a lot more visceral for me, there was just that more depth to his character than in some of the other characters that we’ve been following for the entire series. In this book, it was Androl, Lan and Logain that really stood out for me.
@13 love the RJ quote, seen it a couple of times and it still makes me laugh and laugh.
Leigh and others covered chapter already really well.
@@@@@ 6, Tektonica: Elyas- read it again, he said “IF he knew how”, he doesn’t know how. He’s always stayed away from the Dream World, so he would not be a very good teacher for Perrin. Perrin’s the one who went chasing nightmares to become stronger in the Dream.
So yes, this is the end, put aside your reservations and go out blazing. But if you don’t know how to do something, it’s easy to say you wouldn’t teach them because of morals.
@@@@@9, LovURphleb: Right! Off to invent a transporter! In 1 year, not only did they create a working model steam powered train, but they got it to cross hundreds of miles, regularly?!? I cannot remember where it made its appearance, but the train between Tear and Cairhien was among the top most “They can’t do that!” moments.
@18 I didn’t see it that way at first but after your incredibly astute description, I could clearly see that happening in my mind’s eye!
bad_platypus @7:
Whoops! You are indeed correct. I’ll fix it, thanks!
@24:
It would be one thing if BS had structured it so that the line A very long two years was part of the preceeding paragraph. But giving it its own paragraph and setting it out to catch the eye like that pretty much means he intended it as a direct shout out to the reader.
And I don’t care if it shattered the fourth wall and completely took me out of the story for five or six minutes. It was awesome.
Although a departure from the POV format (and maybe because it was a departure) I have to give a high-five to Brandon for its construction:
He let it stand alone. When I read that, I just sat up a little straighter. “Oh boy, this is gonna be great.” And it was. Better than great. Totally from beyond the beyond. Way to go Brandon.
So, did Androl open a horizontal gateway in a pool of “liquid hot magma”, and translate that into a vertical gateway on the other side (gravity based)? Or did he just open a vertical gateway in the pool and the magma suddenly no longer had other magma and containing rock pushing against it so it flowed out the path of least resistance (pressure based). As far as I know, while horizontal gateways are now possible, the angle of the gateway created always has to equal the angle of gateway produced.
But maybe Androl is even more impressive than I initially thought.
How funny would it be if you made someone a vertical gateway that came out a horizontal one like 4 feet off the ground? Hilarious.
Androl used his tiny gateways to cut leather-straps – I’ve no doubt that he could place these gateway where he wanted and how he wanted, which implies precedent about a gateway not facing towards him.
AP: I agree about the “meta-comment” about the “long two years.” BWS did several more meta-comments, eg. last chapter with “Loial’s book to finish” – It’s the last installment of a 14-books series, so I think it’s great that he managed to fit it into a context …
@17:
I don’t disagree that he might know there is magma/lava to be found inside a volcano, the problem is that he has no way of ascertaining WHERE in that volcano it might be. A volcano isn’t just chalk-full of molten rock, it would just collapse on itself if that was the case – usually there is a relatively small chamber within the volcano, and a larger chamber well below the volcano’s surface expression that feeds it. Even with the unique way Dragonmount was formed, it pretty much has to be consistent with natural volcanoes in that only a relatively tiny portion of the overall volume can be liquid in order for the structure to persist. Hitting that in one try is Mat-level luck.
@leighdb – You said “for example, I would have loved a POV from either Nynaeve or Moiraine during their time in the Bore”, and I agree. But didn’t we get one from Nynaeve where she talked about having to use her old skills as the Wisdom to heal since she was in the circle controlled by Rand? (Talk about sentences that make no sense without context.) Or am I just remembering this incorrectly? I do wish Moiraine had one; she didn’t get nearly as much screen time as I’d hoped after her return.
Yeah, if Elan wants to die a final death so badly, why doesn’t he juse balefilre himself?
S
NotInventedHere@30,
I believe that the context of the action shows that he was well prepared. This was not an off the cuff weave, but one which had been prepared well in advance. After all, the retaken Black Tower did not show up as a disorganized channeling mob, but a well disciplined and unified fighting force. The text to date has made it clear that Androl has done much thinking on how to best utilize his Janus talent once he had enough power.
I can see him linked with his Pevara making dozens of tiny gateways above a pond on the grounds of the Black Tower into the heart of Dragonmount, sometimes getting a little block of obsidian, sometimes a hunk of hot stone, and sometimes a jet of red or white-hot magma, delineating the limits of the magma chamber and keeping it fixed in his mind.
When someone directly asked RJ if you could balefire yourself, his answer was that it would be tricky – on the order of doing eye surgery on yourself. It would have been far easier for Moridin to grab some random channeler, teach him balefire, and Compel him to balefire Moridin. Not too difficult, really.
Braid_Tug@23:
I know Elyas rarely came into the dream world, so how did he get there without Aes Sedai/Ashaman help? Did I miss that? And then he just faded? Was he sleeping? Yeah..that was probably it.
Ah lava… that made my day (sick or not). Just a little under the weather—fever came outta nowhere yesterday. Tired… but enjoying your posts as always, Leigh.
Elyas:
‘Bout time he made an appearance; it certainly was a surprise.
And Perrin and Logain join the short list of Smart People who have figured out the Corrupting Great Captains scheme. Yay.
Big circle:
Now that’s more like it!
Androl’s Lavagate:
AHAHAHA. Like ZOMG, he just dumped half a volcano on the Trollocs! He deserves an award for that… XD
Maybe more later if I’m up to it.
Bzzz™.
If Moridin balefired himself, that would kill him and prevent the Dark One from bringing him back, but it would not put him beyond the natural reincarnation mechanism of the Wheel. Such a death would not be sufficient to achieve Moridin’s goal – he wants to permanently cease to exist, and never live again in any form.
@37 Errr….wait. I think balefire removes your chance at reincarnation. Pretty sure thats part of why its so terrible and forbidden. Also the other part where it actually removes pieces of the pattern from existence, leading to cracks into oblivion/etc.
NotInventedHere @5
I would say that it isn’t that the lava is under pressure, per se. If Androl opened his gateway several hundred feet beneath the surface of the caldera, the pressure differential to open air, plus relative gravity, would more than suffice for the effect described.
Lakesidey @14
Yukiri invented the GoogleGate™ for battlefield viewing, IIRC.
Interview: Nov 21st, 1998 TPOD Signing Report – John Novak
(Paraphrased) John Novak
[Is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]
Robert Jordan
If someone is balefired, the Dark One can’t reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn’t press.
Like the post above me says, balefire’s no way for Moridin’s soul to be completely erased from the pattern and not be reborn. The only way is for the Dark One to win. Moridin is depressed by the whole idea of eternal rebirth, like Rand was at the end of The Gathering Storm. Killing himself normally and being reborn would still be depressing to him (probably he’d figure out in his new life the same thing he did in this one).
I was pretty sure too that Balefire removes ALL chances of reincarnation…I still remember the description of your thread being yanked out of the pattern (Thus disturbing the whole thing) and that seemed to be pretty permanent.
Though I have to say that I was always somewhat bothered by the fact that the Pattern would provide a tool which could destroy it….
About the Lava Gateway….eh. I like the innovative use, but apart from the impracticalities mentioned above, there is one other thing that bothers me about this, and that’s efficiency.
In other battles with the One Power as well, we get a lot of description how channelers tear up the earth, let lightning rain and a whole lot of other things. While that makes for some impressive imagery, a lot of it felt like inefficient use as well.
It’s the same here. Sure, no one can deny that a 100-feet hole in the air spewing lava is cool…but using a Deathgate seems so much more efficient. And yeah, I’m aware Androl probably doesn’t know that possibility, but it’s not really far-fetched. I mean, a gateway slices everything clean through. Is it that hard to realize that this makes for an excellent weapon, especially with someone who can make gateways far larger than normally possible with his power?
Also about the Balefire thing….I think I mentioned this before, but not sure:
Another possibility could be for Moridin to run around, balefiring everything that comes into view. The pattern is already disturbed by the relatively low amount of Balefire happening in the series, and Moridin is very powerful. It shouldn’t take him long to have the world break apart..
@42, Jeineapple: I believe Androl talks about Deathgates in ToM. Something along the lines of “they are just different enough that his gift with Gateways did not carry over.”
Guess the AS did not ever figure out a way to make Deathgates happen with sadiar. I wish the Greens had been working on that after they found out it was a possibility.
@35. Tektonica: That’s how I read it. Elyas was asleep to enter the Dream World like normal. Think Perrin was just hopping he knew more tricks.
Perrin’s whole Dream World arch to me highlights how smart he is. No, he’s not the fastest thinker in the room, but his logic and thought process is very good. Makes me think he would be a great mechanical engineer. If he didn’t have to be King of Saldaea and Lord of the Two Rivers.
@44 Braid_Tug
Why limit him to a mechanical engineer? Perrin would be a great engineer, of any sort
@30 RE: Androl opening up a gateway where the magma was.
Except the whole way a gateway works is that you do NOT need to know the destination, but only the origin point. If he needed to specifically know where the magma was in order to open a gateway there, then nobody would ever be able to travel someplace they’d never been.
NotInventedHere @5, et seq: Re “lava”
Well, once again when someone accuses BWS of using terminology that’s too “modern,” I have to point out that RJ used the word himself, once literally in the Prologue to TEotW to describe the output of Dragonmount, and once metaphorically in ACoS to describe Graendel’s tone of voice when she talked to Sammael.
I don’t disagree that BWS (generally speaking) uses more contemporary terminology, but this is not an example.
anthonypero @46:
You don’t have to have actually been to where the gateway opens, but I seem to remember that you have to have some idea of where it is/what it looks like. (Unless you’re just opening a gate to anywhere random, like Aviendha’s first one to Seanchen.)
@44, becasue of his love of making things out of metal.
But you are right too.
The SG opened a gateways to lots of places they hadn’t been, but knew where they were. Some of these cities are larger than a volcano in circumference, and without having been there, they were able to open a gateway to a few miles outside of it, quite accurately. Androl knew where Dragonmount was, and that’s probably as accurate as was necessary. Its also quite probably that he PRACTICED this on a smaller scale before doing it in this scene. So, its possible that the first vfew times he just opened a tiny gateway and dumped dirt on the ground.
re: Androl
Androl was obviously a world traveler. He remarked about cliff diving, I can easily believe he has been to Dragonmount, and probably other volcanos. I am sure he has seen lava before. Just because Dragonmount is the only listed volcano, doesn’t mean they aren’t all over the place, especially since new land was raised. They call it plate tectonics ( just done with the AoL version of Rapid change ;) )
anthonypero @46:
Exactly! It has been mentioned repeatedly in WoT that you don’t have to know the place you are opening the gateway to, only the ground you are on. And even that last had been gradually hedged by tons of cave-outs so that it became meaningless as a restriction. So, intention is everything where Travelling is concerned.
As to gateways not being close to the channeler or being pointed in a different direction – the deathgates are moving, rotating gateways, so that it had been established by RJ that such things are possible.
Comparison of the destructive power of deathgates versus huge lava gateways is pretty meaningless, IMHO, since effectiveness of various weaves always fluctuated wildly according to plot demands. Here, it is clearly supposed to be much more effective.
Also, barely anybody uses deathgates in AMoL (or any other particularly effective combat weaves or group channeling tactics established in the previous books, for that matter), so I suppose that they have become “tiring”, just like holding gateways suddenly became so in ToM.
And yea, I don’t get it what the obssession with not going into T’AR in the flesh or shifting out of it ditto is, when it is literally the end of world! I mean, come on!
It is nice that not only women are stuffy fogeys on the matter, but it just boggles imagination, really, particularly since nobody seems to be able to explain _why_ it is supposed to be evil…
I mean, with balefire, at least there was a reason and it turned out to be quite valid in the end. The Pattern did very nearly unravel because of it’s unchecked use.
It seems that most of the Asha’man numbers have quietly vanished between KoD and AMoL too, since Logain turns up with only a few dozen, when he should have had hundreds, even without those with the armies and those who defected to the Dark /were Turned. Oh, well, that’s in line with general severe reduction of channeler numbers in AMoL.
Elayne shows that she is worthy of her command here, I like to see that.
Taim’s been turning people and killing off the rest.
Lava. I had a crazy theory that lava from dragon mount would be the “blood” of the dragon that would save the light side. Lava is poeticly called the blood of the place it come from. So lava did not save the good guys at the right place but it turned out the lava of dragon mount was important so I feel somewhat validated.
Isn’t a Deathgate basically just a horizontal gateway opened where your enemy is?
It’s a vertical spinning gateway that darts toward your enemy.
It opens and closes constantly, when it opens and closes, like all male gateways, it rotates.
I never understood why Androl didn’t open one massive horizontal gateway, 3 – 4 feet off the ground and slice the trollocs in half.
Or why Rand never tried to use the 3 razor sharp floating thingys that Asmodean left for him on the inside edge of the fog at Rhuidean for the same reason.
Seems like either would be simple and effective against a charging trolloc army.
Wookster125:
Well, Logain did ask him for “a miracle.”
So, loyal re-readers, what did y’all learn from the post this week? Well, Auntie Leigh, I learned that 50 years of reading SFF has ruined my ability to read any other genre without misconstruing meanings. I am forever condemned to be a literalist, thinking: *her lungs actually burst*. I guess my mom was right–reading that stuff wasn’t good for my brain.
“A very long two years.” Heh. Hehehehe ha ha ho ho ho ha! Felt like about seventeen years to me! (I started reading in 1996.) (During Finals week, final semester of college.) (Oops.)
Nice summary, Leigh! And it’s good to have a moment to comment, I’ve missed out on some good discussions the last couple of months. Always lurking, but never enough time to write!
So just a couple of quick comments on the comments:
Isilel @@@@@ 51, re: Asha’man numbers, they didn’t ‘quietly vanish’ except in the sense that Logain/Androl sent most of the Ashaman away before letting Lyrelle and Co. into the BT grounds to bond their 47 (or so). They kept only enough men to meet the exact letter of their obligation.
Re: the feasibility of Androl’s LavaGate, not only do you not have to know the destination, but Androl’s Talent allows him to ignore the need to learn the ground you’re on, as is discussed during the fighting at Merrilor. (Which is good, as that necessity would make lots of his Travelling tricks more complicated if he were on unfamiliar ground.) So I feel sure his Talent can compensate for not knowing exactly where to find lava. (As others note, he’s surely seen Dragonmount.)
The lavagate is sort of a CMOA, but I’d expect a huge circle of channelers to be able to come up with *some* way to deal with an army, so in some ways I was more impressed by Androl at the Black Tower – opening tiny gates even with the dreamspike, and when the dreamspike was gone, pulling every dirty dimension door trick you can think of. Gateways to redirect attacks, gateways opening under your feet, etc. Cool stuff, and clearly indicated earlier in AMoL when Androl tells us he’s been thinking about ways to use his ability. I knew Brandon was going to break out some cool stuff, and that chapter, and this, are pretty cool payoffs!
Also, as opening gateways under people’s feet shows us, horizontal rather than vertical gateways are possible, but it took Androl (and Yukiri, for the women – with her spygates) to figure it out.
Re: Androl’s large amount of screentime, it *is* a shame to lose that time from, say, Nynaeve, or Moiraine. But Androl and Pevara fill several holes in the narrative. We needed some old guard Aes Sedai who were semi-awesome (it was tiresome having the Supergirls be responsible for *every* AS achievement), which the Black Ajah hunters give us. Pevara, as a likable, non-manhating, pretty awesome Red, is especially welcome.
We also needed an Asha’man pov character, something Leigh in particular has complained about!
Plus, Androl is cool, and he and Pevara are huggable. So, I don’t mind them getting so much time.
Wookster125, re: Androl slicing trollocs to death with horizontal gateways, he does some of that on a small scale at Merrilor. But yeah, I wondered that too.
HOWEVER.
Cool as this chapter is, it’s the one that most bugs me tactically and makes me really, really skeptical about the usage of our female channelers. Elayne’s in a full circle of 13 at the beginning, they’re all exhausted, their channelers are too few and too exhausted to enable them to evacuate. Had the Ashaman not showed up with a miracle, that army would’ve been annihilated (to say nothing of Cairhien).
That’s ridiculously unacceptable. If they’re that exhausted and the situation is that dire, Elayne needs to use the little strength her circle has to ASK FOR HELP.
Because healing may be important, and the Yellows may be tired, but still nearly all the Yellows are in Mayene (i.e. not fighting a battle themselves) with one or two thousand novices and Accepted. Even if they’re as exhausted as Elayne’s bunch, there’s enough of them to open enough gateways to evacuate. Again, running your field hospital is important.
NOT LETTING THE ARMIES OF ANDOR, CAIRHIEN, THE BAND OF THE RED HAND WITH THEIR DRAGONS, THE OGIER, ETC., GET ANNIHILATED, IS MORE IMPORTANT. BAD COMMAND DECISIONS, ELAYNE!!!
Ok, I feel better now.
I stopped trying to find logic or common sense in the behaviour of channellers on the battlefields in AMOL quite early on, because it was just too much illogical stuff, a huge reduction in their powers, and the their tiredness always becoming too much in the most inconvenient moment for them and the most convenient for the plot.
Over 100 fresh Asha’man here with Elayne’s group helping them to make a few mixed circles should’ve completely obliterated the Trollocs, who had no channelling support, without any lava tricks. Remember when Rand and the 15-20 channellers with him killed 100 000 trollocs like it was nothing, in KoD?
What happened to most of the Kin anyway? Less than two dozens here. All 150 of them with Elayne and her angreals would’ve been decisive in ths campaign -now they barely affected in the campaign apart from Gateways, and even this exhausted them quickly. Etc, etc.
Still a cool scene though, if you don’t think too much about stuff like that.
But I am disappointed we didn’t see Elayne battling the Trollocs with her channelling, there was too fighting scenes of her, given her magic powers, this would’ve been a perfect chance.
@57 Wookster – He made three gateways 100 feet wide to spray lava across thousands of trollocs. A gateway to slice through the entire army would have had to be thousands of feet wide, which I doubt he could do considering he passed out after the hundred foot ones, and it would have to account for the varying levels of terrain, and movement of the enemy; lots of them would probably duck under or just lose a foot or something. But really the terrain is the biggest issue. They’re not all standing in a giant flat parking lot.
Isilel @51: Re: Deathgates
In Androl’s case, he specifically observes in AMoL (Ch. 37, pg. 638) that his talent for gateways does not extend to Deathgates, as the weaves are “apparently just different enough.”
@62 eep
I’m not sure that the terrain would be an insurmountable obstacle, but I see your point.
Your comment about about the width of the gateway does make me wonder, though. Does it take the same amount of strength to create a 100′ square gateway as it would to take a 20′ tall x 500′ wide gateway?
Or what about a 100′ wide but only 6 feet or 6 inches tall gateway? It could probably be held open longer with less stress. If it is used only to slice, there is no need to make it large enough to walk through.
If making a shorter gateway takes a significantly less amount of the power, then that might be an option to increase the number of times Androl can make use of them.
anthonypero@19
That’s easy.
“Silflay hraka, u eembler hrair”…don’t think it’s exactly right, but I loved it too…haven’t thought of that book in years…time for a reread, methinks…
Here I am again, still haven’t read commentary or any of the AMOL posts. Still selfishly popping up. Still spoiler phobic. I am just beginning Chapter 37. It’s gonna be interesting to see how Leigh breaks that up! Once I start my re-read, after I finish my read.
It seems strange. Don’t get me wrong, to say that I enjoying AMOL is like saying the Sears Tower is a little bit tall. Devotion, anticipation, all of that is there.
I feel like I am riding all of the balls in a pinball machine at once. I have spent over 20 years with these people, at l e n g t h. I know them, have been in their heads, lived with them. Now, I’m rolling head first, bouncing into, colliding with one or another of these souls I know so well. Just as I get settled back with somebody, I’ve bounced into somebody else, Crash! Down the gutter! No–salvation! No–catastrophe! RandMatPerrinLanFaileOlver–wait there’s Bela–where’s Morgase and Tallanvor? NynaeveThomMorgaine LanTuonAllana?huhWTF?TamGawyn?**headdesk**
AviendaCaddyElayneEgwene.
wow. ENEMA. DUOPOTAMIANS. Bounce. Bounce.Crash.
Wow.
And still no Fain. Yet.
I did see Leigh’s intro to this segment. Androl Rocks! Lava!
Wow.
What happened to the newly bonded Ashaman and their AS? Did they show up on any battlefield? If Logain had brought more AS they could have made more mixed circles.
Long time reader, first time poster. I discovered the Wheel of Time series last summer, and timed out my reading schedule to conincide with the release of the last book, so I am only 1.3 years old. But I did not discover your MOA reread until the beginning of this summer. Hi @leighdb! All I really wanted to say was thank you. Your reread has been one of the best things that I have ever discovered on the internet, just edging out this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ ( don’t click that). I hope there is room in subwoofer’s bunker. I brought egg rolls.
@51. Isilel. In fairness apparently 100 Ashaman did arrive with Logain, however I agree with you we do seem short of channellers. The Shaido had 400 channellers on their own, how many should the other 11 Aiel clans have? Also the Sea people should be on a par with the other Randland groups having one would think thousands, yet their one and only contribution to the last battle, an important one, is the Bowl of the Winds. At one stage there were a thousand men at the Black Tower even allowing for dark friends and “turnings”, we should have more than 150 on the light side. As far as the Kinswomen are concerned , they are generally weak in the power which is one reason they did not make it in the White Tower, (it took 4 to hold a gateway open) so 14 of them as part of a circle may be not a huge contribution. And as Birgit says we have 47 extra bonded AS/Ashaman, now most of the 100 with logain may be these new warders but where are their AS. We could have had one good killer battle circle
The Aes Sedai that bonded the 47 Asha’man went to the battlefield with Egwene, at least Lelaine thought that the needed to get the men bonded and head to Egwenes army.
Easing the Dragon @70 – Welcome! And thanks for the chuckles. :) And the egg rolls. Mmmmm.
For those who argued, that “normal” battle weaves would have been better than lava: the text makes a point that the lava seperates the two armies. It not only kills some trollocs, but makes a hot and burning barrier, no one would trespass, gaining Elayne’s forces time to retreat. Without the lava, they would have had to completely destroy the trollocs – and since channelers do tire, it might be better to conserve some strenght for later…
Good morning all,
Travyl,
Yes, that exactly. We’ve seen time and again how the general in charge, Itarulde most recently in Maradon, used cavalry to break up a trolloc battle line to allow for a more orderly retreat.
Lava makes one Hell (pun intended) of a cavalry charge and leaves an unpassable barrier.
H’lo all, been a while. Brief respite from daily life….
Lava is good, but I was hoping for something more biblical… something along the lines of tapping a large body of water and
cleansing the fith of Sarumonummm, washing away dirty Trollocs. It would have been nice to see a nod to Raiders too; large, perfectly round rocks rolling downhill, things of that nature.Androl as a character does prove one thing: strength without skill has its limits. I’m a fan.
Not much else, because I’ve been out of it, I’ll sniff around and see if I can get back in.
Woof™.
Hey Sub
Yeah, Androl might have opened a gateway from the bottom of the ocean. The question though, would be who had the high ground? Once you account for the initial fire-hose effect (obviously the gateways would point at the Trolloc hordes), you’d have to deal with the fact that you are in the process of creating a large inland sea.
As long as you have the undisputed higher ground – it’s a possible tactic. Kind of rough on the topography.
Lava doesn’t go very far before it cools and hardens. In this case, it was probably a better choice (and certainly more spectacular!)
Sub @76, please sniff – and “bark” / comment more regularly again. Your comments usually are not only funny but also insightful and relevant.
Taking up your point about LotR reference the lava “stream” at least fits better as an analogy to the LotR water flood than “conventional” battle weaves would have, albeit not being comparable. (And I myself wouldn’t have thought of comparing those two events, and I don’t think this one is supposed to be an homage to the scene).
Sub, nice to see you back here- it’s been awhile. Been shagging the dog lately? *
* I hope what I heard about this being a Canadian expression is true…
@@@@@ fork, well it also didn’t work for Anakin, did it? Meh. I figure if push comes to shove, er drowning, there can be a parting of the Red Sea. As far as an inland sea, after all the carnage of battle, it would be a fitting grave, and more in keeping with the idea of Breaking the world again.
@@@@@travyl, this is an epic battle, but more on the level of the end where Aragorn and folk travel to the Black Gates to ask for a cup of sugar. IIRC there was a big hole and many things fell down.
@@@@@ValMar- no dogs were shagged in the making of this post. Been working like a heathen these days.
Woof™.
Oh yeah, if anybody wants to find me these days, I’m on the dreaded Zuckerberry crack. Folks call me Subb Woofer there, don’t ask about the spelling, something about security algorithms, tidal charts, phases of the moon.
Woof™.
What? Gah! Blargh! I see Tordot has er… not improved these days.
*Le sigh*
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Woof™.
I finished AMOL again a few nights ago. It was better the second time through. Less of my expectations got in the way and I started to enjoy the story for what it was. Plus, it gave me something to do during furlough.
All that being said, I fully expect the comments to pick up in about 100 pages or so. I wrote down a bunch of stuff during the last third of the book my second time through. We’re trudging through physical battle after battle right now and the philisophical battle hasn’t fully materialized.
I think that I’ve wrestled through the logical inconsistancy regarding the concept of evil in the WoT system. Or at a deeper level the ability to execute the total spectrum of behavior being a necessary component of a fully actualized and therefore appreciable personhood.
It came down to me becoming comfortable with the concept of a circular cosmology in a story that I very much regard as one of the best I’ve ever read. It left my linear sensibilities reeling. No pun intended.
I still cringed everytime I read “Shaisam.” No fixing that in my brain.
CireNaes – I wonder if anyone (Brigitte?) is keeping stats on Commenters who have been contributing to the Re-read since the early days, which means early 2009. In my own case, I did not stumble on it until late 2010, when Leigh was late in WH. But I have gone back and read those early posts, when she was doing MULTIPLE chapters, and twice a week!
The names of Commenters has certainly evolved a lot. Many of the early contributors have not been heard from for a long time. I miss some of them (though not the trolls) and wonder if they still follow the post. Many of them seem to go through ” hot streaks” of frequent posting, then fade out – sometimes returning later.
Anyway – I noted recently that CireRaes commented on the very first “regular” post, which covered the first NINE CHAPTERS of tEotW. (The commentary in those early posts was a little sweeping!). It’s good to see he’s (she’s?) going to be around for the finish.
I remember that. I really ticked off Leigh. Something about her Catholic education. It’s all so hazy. I’m actually saving my re-read of the re-read for later in the hopes that Leigh goes once more unto the WoT breach.
I don’t rightly recall when I went Grey or when everyone’s Grey became Black. The Moderators were hopping back in those days. Tons of Chapters to reflect and debate about. Plenty of controversy. I loved it.
I believe our venerable Keeper of the Numbers tallies are from all the way back and were a pleasent surprise. It was only alreadymad’s numerics that had to be finessed due to regular clandestine “activities.”
And I’ve updated my profile to avoid any further confusion.
Oh yes, I laughed and laughed at Perrin’s thought about the time since they left the Two Rivers–a very long two years indeed! Which lasted twenty years in the real world. Talk about a reversal of Year Inside, Hour Outside. And really, that being mentioned in a book where time dilation becomes such a key factor (helpfully mentioned by Perrin in this very chapter!), there’s no way the reader couldn’t pick up on the metafictional resonance here. Considering WOT is supposed to be our past/future, the idea that we could be going through the same time dilation while reading about the events of the Third Age is attractive and mind-boggling to contemplate. I have to imagine that this was also on Sanderson’s mind when he wrote it, and not just a fun fourth-wall breakage, because the implications aren’t that hard to pick up on and he’s a smart writer. So many layers of meaning and symbolism…something WOT has always been known for.
Don’t feel too bad, Leigh, I didn’t guess right away it might be Elyas either despite him having just left Perrin in the previous book, saying he was going off to the Last Hunt. It helps we didn’t get a description of him that made his identity obvious (being old and grizzled isn’t an immediate indicator–a lot of wolves are). But it was wonderful seeing him again, including as a wolf. We knew wolfbrothers could appear as wolves (poor Noam, as well as Perrin himself) but it’s nice to get confirmation this isn’t a unique Main Character thing. I was a bit puzzled at first as to his lack of insight into strategy and tactics, since even with wolfish thoughts melding with his human ones, Elyas was still a Warder at one time.
But then I remembered he wasn’t there for all the tactical planning, so of course he doesn’t know about the other battlefields or who’s in charge where. The only reason he knows who Ituralde is, I imagine, is because of the Great Captains’ legendary status. Though apparently he must have seen or met the man at least once, to recognize him at Shayol Ghul when he takes him out. Now there’s an interesting off-screen moment to think about…we know Elyas lived with a Saldaean woman for several years…is that when he met or saw Ituralde, since the Little Wolf had been involved in a number of border disputes with Saldaea? Who was the woman, then…?
Anyway, yay for Perrin finally figuring out what’s going on! Not that it really matters much in the end…Elyas does stop Ituralde but as far as we know, he doesn’t pass the message on to anyone. The others just figure it out due to Mat’s warning and Egwene and Lan confronting Bryne and Agelmar respectively. And it’s this which retroactively explains Bashere’s actions, explaining why when we see him later he’s no longer in command but is allowed to still walk about and fight freely rather than being locked up as a Darkfriend.
At first I thought it was something of a cop-out that Nynaeve and Moiraine are left clinging to rocks the whole time Rand is fighting Moridin/the Dark One, but it makes sense: as the Dragon, Rand is able to affect reality around him to some degree–he can’t stop the Dark One from shifting the ground beneath his feet but he can at least withstand the force of the wind. And a case could be made the Dark One wants Rand to fight him, because he wants to break him, so he ensures the wind doesn’t touch him so their confrontation can happen. But Nynaeve and Moiraine have no such protection.
Nice call-back on the whole Ba’alzamon bit and what consequences it had for Ishamael. Once we knew how much of a nihilist he was and how much he wanted existence to end (from the Guide first, then from TGS), it makes perfect sense that his return was a punishment. Of course, pretending to the Dark One aside, Ishamael was still one of the most effective Forsaken, so that probably factored into the Dark One’s decision too, but the fact this could force the nihilist to continue existing had to be a delicious irony for him.
Poor Gallenne…I always liked him, more than Arganda most of the time, truth be told. At the same time his off-screen death is fitting; for all that we saw him a lot during the PLOD (and a lot of people tuned that out), he was still only a minor character. Even a few lines on-screen (i.e. Bashere and Deira) would probably be more than he merited. The fact Arganda wanted to honor him by wearing his plumes, and later keeps thinking about how he missed him, really shows there was more depth to their relationship than it seemed. I do believe I may have misjudged the Ghealdanin.
Re: Logain: This had to be one of the best Big Damn Heroes moments in the book, and there are so many more still to come! But really, when he said “The Black Tower stands with the Lion of Andor”, I cheered. When was the last time we were this happy to see Asha’man show up–Dumai’s Wells? On a side note, wasn’t the last time Elayne saw Logain when he was still being held in Salidar? Indeed, he has been through a lot since then to change him, not just the Turning attempt.
Speaking of cheering, that was what I did for Androl’s LavaGate (after picking my jaw up off the floor). I don’t particularly care about the logistical or plot-related problems with this (though I think the people in the comments answering these objections have given some rather astute and accurate refutations) because indeed: epic and cool. Particularly with Androl’s poetic line about the Dragon’s anger. It was indeed a wonderful way to finally see what gateways can do. While it’s unlikely Jordan himself would have done this (though considering the Deathgates and Dumai’s Wells it’s clear he could pull out the stops when he wanted to), I’d like to think he’d approve and even be in awe too.
To Leigh: I know what you mean about SFF’s jargon. I know a lot of people (like the ones you say you know exist but cannot understand) would use this as an excuse to decry and belittle SFF, claiming it isn’t real literature or that it only creates escapist fantasy. I’d say that first, what is so wrong with escapist fantasy so long as you come back to the real world afterward? To that extent all fiction is escapist fantasy, regardless the setting or genre. And second, fiction itself has so many conventions which are untrue-to-life that it isn’t as if avoiding SFF will make it so readers never lose sight of reality. There’s a reason the tropes Reality Is Unrealistic and The Coconut Effect exist–people have become so used to the way things are done in fiction (not just SFF, not even just TV) that reality becomes harder to discern and understand. Removing SFF and its specific jargons won’t eliminate that problem, just the surface symptoms (along with a lot of wonderul, powerful works that speak to philosophy, morality, symbolism, and so much more).
If people are going to remember to stay true to reality, that means they also can’t be swayed by elitist claims of the value of “literary” works–because they are just as likely to change readers’ perceptions of reality. More so, in fact, because their seeming much closer to reality makes it a lot easier to be lulled into believing what happens in fiction is the way it can, or does, or should happen in real life. I am not of course saying literary works have no value, far from it–just that they are not on some imaginary pedestal above SFF, both are equally likely to teach their readers while entertaining them (thank you, Samuel Johnson!), it’s just that SFF does it a bit more obviously by being one step further removed from reality. The fact there’s jargon to get through just makes reading SFF more challenging, not less, more worthwhile and more intellectual in some ways. And it’s not as if the lack of this in literary fiction prevents it (or its writers and apologists) from falling into pretension (see Everyone Is Jesus In Purgatory).
Basically, both genres have depth, meaning, symbolism, complexity, and relativity to real life, but go about it in different ways, and while obviously taste matters in what you will read and enjoy, anyone who claims one is intrinsically better than the other is just using elitism and One True Scotsman arguments to justify their hatred for something that is different.
Side note: the non-POV-switch scene break was probably done precisely so we could get that first line of “It was a thing of legends.” To put it another way, some logistical maneuvering of the army, the Aes Sedai and Asha’man, and Androl’s planning and preparation necessitated enough time that a break was justified, but we stayed with Elayne because she was the best person to witness this. (Pevara might have been a good second choice, particularly with her being a non-man-hating Red, but even she would probably have been a bit less awed than young Elayne. Logain, maybe, though I think Sanderson was making us wait to see into his head so we wouldn’t find out what the near-Turning did to him until later.) The fact this allowed for a break to emphasize the coolness and awesomeness of the moment was just an added bonus.
@5 NotInventedHere: I’d also say the Black Ajah and Turned Asha’man/Aes Sedai at the Black Tower experienced a form of the gate which had no side facing its creator when they were made to balefire themselves.
@19 anthonypero: LOL! Well as you can see the thought did occur to me and I did speak about it to some degree. But the very fact you recognized it shows you don’t need me, Cire, or Freelancer to wax eloquent on it, it’s something everyone can recognize–we’ve all had great insights, thoughts, and meanings we’ve discovered and shared with each other. And anyway, after you brought it up, anything more I said would be repetitive, extraneous, and self-fulfilling. You already said it, so what more needs to be said? :P Also to you @26: giving it its own line has the same effect as “It was a thing of legends”.
@28 qbe_64 Whether or not there was any actual pressure on the lava or just a sudden absence of a barrier next to it and gravity did the rest, I suspect it was a vertical gateway.
@29 travyl: While you’re right that Loial’s comment worked on more than one level, his character arc kind of always did have that resonance, since he’s been wanting to write the tale of the Dragon Reborn ever since he found out that’s who Rand was in books 2 and 3. All along he’s been wanting to make sure his book got finished, the same as Jordan did, which became more poignant when he died…and now Sanderson did finish it, and we’re on the last one, and Loial needs to make it through the same as the reader does. So many levels.
@31 Nick31: We get several from her actually while she’s watching Rand/working on Alanna. So you’re not remembering wrongly. I too wish there had been a Moiraine one (we get one from her at the very end as they flee the Bore, but that hardly counts).
@33 Jonellin: LOL! That is both a humorous and wonderfully logical way to explain how Androl did it, and it even works in-story since he has, as you said, been planning and thinking about how to use gateways for some time and now he’s paired up with Pevara who is eminently practical and methodical, as well as rather battle-minded for a Red.
@35 Tektonica: Those who are sleeping and end up in TAR do just fade out when they wake up, from what I recall. That happened with the Supergirls when they were meeting each other, and with Egwene and the Black Ajah in Tear.
@36 insectoid: Logain is in on it now? Hmm…he does say “the Shadow was planning this trap for a long time” and that he’d read it about it in Taim’s notes. But do we know the Shadow was specifically planning to bring down the Great Captains through Compulsion? Or was the trap just “we will separate the forces of the Light, then trap them between Shadownspawn armies”? That’s what I thought upon first reading. The wording is ambiguous, but you know, I think you are right…they must have been planning this all along. Which would explain why Graendal wasn’t killed and left dead despite her failures–she’s the best Compeller among the Forsaken, without her I doubt Moghedien could have done the deed, we have no idea if Demandred knows how or how good he is (plus he’s been busy in Shara and planning the actual battles), and though Taim can Compel he’s certainly not good enough for this and was also rather busy. So Logain does know. Kudos to you for catching this!
@38 Whitevoodoo, @42 Jineapple: Your confusion is understandable since Jordan gave different answers and went back on his word a few times, but the final verdict is that no, balefire does not prevent regular reincarnation by the Wheel. It just messes with time, which presumably is also why it damages the Pattern as well as keeping the Dark One from bringing souls back since he can’t step outside time. (Whether that’s an intrinsic quality he has or it’s due to his being imprisoned, I was never quite sure.) As for the Pattern providing an ability that can harm/destroy it…I point to the free will argument which Rand eventually discovers and embraces to justify not killing the Dark One, and the fact there is also a Flame of Tar Valon weave to counter balefire. Balance.
@39 Freelancer: GoogleGate?? *snickersnorts* That is both wonderfully accurate and hilarious.
@44 Braid_Tug: What makes you think Perrin is going to be that kind of king or lord? He’s always been the hands-on, practical sort of ruler. I’m quite sure he’ll let Faile (and Tam, I imagine) run the day-to-day adminstrative tasks while he still does blacksmithing and running with wolves. Under that view, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he starts studying with the new engineers, especially if Elayne brings them and their discoveries from the School of Cairhien and the Academy of the Rose, and/or if a school is established in the Two Rivers. (The Dragon’s Peace said there’d be one in every capital city, so a rebuilt Maradon would have one; not sure if the Two Rivers counts as separate or not, independent nature aside, but I bet Elayne, Rand, and Perrin would all want a school there. We did see one in Rand’s first vision of the peaceful post-Last Battle world.)
@51 Isilel: Well, it seems clear that Slayer, who spent way more time in TAR in the flesh than even Perrin, is pretty evil and inhuman, but since it’s not clear that is because (or only because) of being there in the flesh, you have a point. Perrin felt increasingly fatigued the longer he was there, and it’s possible if you stay too long and die in the dream something could happen to your soul, but beyond that we don’t really know. It may also depend on the person; Perrin only used it as a tool so as to stop evil (Slayer) or protect those he cared about (the wolves, Faile, Rand), while Slayer willingly embraced it to do more and more evil things, so that may have been why being there in the flesh made him more inhuman and not Perrin.
And yes, the Asha’man didn’t vanish. A whole lot were turned by Taim, and the ones who weren’t were killed. Any that aren’t with Logain have already been sent to Kandor, Tarwin’s Gap, or Shayol Ghul.
@57 Wookster: I may be wrong but I don’t think Asmodean ever taught Rand that razor weave trick; it may be he couldn’t after he was shielded so strongly by Lanfear. I’d think Rand would have asked him about it off-screen, so since it never showed up among Rand’s tricks later, that must have been the answer Asmodean gave him. Either that or for some reason Rand never thought to ask about it.
@60 chaplainchris: You do a good job of explaining why the Deathgates weren’t used and how Androl was able to do his LavaGate, but you seem to have missed why the army in Cairhien was there in the first place–first to stop Shadowspawn from pouring out of the Caemlyn Waygate and coming up behind the armies at Kandor and Tarwin’s Gap, and then after leading them eastward, to keep Cairhien from falling. So even assuming they could have sent for help from Kandor (which thanks to the Sharans and Bryne’s faulty leadership was falling apart even with Seanchan help) or Mayene, if they had evacuated that would have allowed Cairhien to fall and left an army of Shadowspawn that could attack the Aes Sedai army at Kandor and even trap Lan’s army at the Gap. So yes, making sure not to lose all those elements Elayne had with her was important. But making sure the Aes Sedai and Borderlander armies didn’t get caught in a vise and crushed was even more important.
@61 Bergmaniac: Were they fresh though? A lot just came from being held prisoner/put under torture to be Turned, and we don’t know how many were sent to the other battlefronts or which ones got the most fresh Asha’man. As for the Kin I am pretty sure some of them were killed when Caemlyn fell; the rest went to join Egwene’s army and from there the weaker ones were probably sent to Mayene for healing duty.
Also we did see Elayne fighting with the One Power some, against both Trollocs and Draghkar.
@69 birgit: Based on what we see later I’d say they joined the Aes Sedai in Kandor, since I only recall seeing Asha’man at Tarwin’s Gap and the Aes Sedai and Asha’man at Shayol Ghul all seemed to be part of Cadsuane’s group.
The DO probably didn’t bring Ishy back as punishment, he just didn’t want to lose a useful tool. That is just Ishy’s interpretation because he doesn’t want to live again.
I always run the comment counting program at the end of each book and post the top 50 in the last post of the book. A comparison of the lists can show when people first posted (I have the full lists).
Moiraine also had a small pov right after Rand made her some tea.
Literalism is fun, but this is is why I love Sci-Fi/Fantasy.
I guess if Elan can’t be freed from rebirth by balefiring himself, he’ll just have to follow the Buddha’s Eightfold Path like the rest of us and attain Nirvana….
Given all the uses you could come up with for gateways if you think about it, I think it’s inventive that only Androl can achieve this (and a few others show some Talent, but not everyone) – and that it obviously isn’t easy, or something he’d do every day. It’s consistent with the Randland magic philosophy, that anyone with the innate nature and the strength can learn a common weave, but truly innovative uses are rare. Maybe its really hard to do anything other than just open a door. It’s a good plot device to limit the otherwise untrammeled power.
He’s good at it. Not everyone can do it. Let it go there.